Tell you what. How would you kill a cow? How will you kill a cow? You’re a natural meat eater. How do you kill a cow? You’re a natural meat eater, you don’t need to use weapons. Lions don’t use weapons, do they? Exactly, but then, they’re natural meat eaters. But, as a natural meat eater… Exactly. But, as a natural meat eater, you shouldn’t need to use guns, or knives, because you could kill the animals yourself, naturally. No, no, because if you’re a natural meat eater… You’re not though. You take a lion on. Fight a lion, who’s the ultimate predator? No, but you, you can… That’s a device. Yes, but you are not a natural meat eater. The word natural means nature. You’re not a natural meat eater, because you’re using guns. But you don’t have to eat both. But you don’t have to. But you don’t have to. I can, I can eat a dog. I can beat up a child. Just because you can do these things, doesn’t make it moral to do them. Yeah, okay, so how do you morally justify killing an animal that doesn’t want to die? No animal wants to die. No, but can you? All it takes is simple logic. All it takes is simple logic. If you inflict pain on an animal, they avoid pain. They don’t want to have pain inflicted upon them. They have a preference to live their life, like you and I do. What right do you have to take their life from them? It’s not how the world works. That’s not an answer. How do you morally justify, how do you morally justify killing an animal that doesn’t want to die? That isn’t a moral justification. Yes. But they don’t have to. How do you morally justify taking the life of an animal that doesn’t want to die? That’s not true. Yes, it is. But that doesn’t make it moral, does it? But it doesn’t have to be that way. No, it is changing. This is why we’re here. I don’t know if you are, but the world is, the world is changing. You’ve got, Nando’s has vegan burgers, GBK has got vegan burgers Yes, but they didn’t used to have vegan burgers. They do now, because the world is changing, because there’s a demand for it. Yes, but there is a demand for vegan food, because there are move vegan people coming into existence. Okay, great. It is changing. Yes, but it’s changing. It is changing. But why… Yes, yes people will still eat meat, but the world is changing What moral justification do you have to take the life of an animal that doesn’t want to die? An animal, an animal has a preference to live their life . All animals, dogs, pigs, cows, chickens, have a preference to live their life. Irrelevant, irrelevant. Irrelevant. We don’t have to eat meat. You don’t have to do it. People in China eat dogs. So, if I choose to eat dog, is that moral? How do you humanely kill an animal? What does the word humane mean? The word humane means having, or showing, compassion or benevolence. You can’t respectfully kill an animals if they don’t need to die. And you didn’t respect them when you killed them, did you? You cannot respect an animal if you’re taking their life form them unnecessarily. But you kill them? Yes. But you kill them. So, say I have the utmost respect for dogs, but I kill them? If someone rescued dogs from a shelter and then killed them, would you say that they loved them? But the animals you kill aren’t in pain. You kill them unnecessarily. You don’t have to. You can make a living doing something else that doesn’t involve killing innocent animals. Why? Why? Why should you… Why do you think you have the rights to take the life of an animal? But we don’t have to. Well, take a child to a slaughterhouse then. Take a child to a slaughter house, let them see a cow being killed, and tell them that that’s normal. So it’s horrible? Right. But it doesn’t have to happen. It doesn’t have to happen. It’s horrible because it’s wrong. It’s wrong. Yes. But most of these people won’t kill the animals themselves because they don’t think it’s right. You ask… You do, but you’re an exception. Most people here, most people here won’t kill animals. Yes, but most people here in Britain won’t kill animals themselves because they don’t think it’s right. What animals do you farm? Okay Yep But the fact that you farm these animals isn’t natural in the first place. Until they die. Mate, I don’t doubt that you look after your animals. And I’m not saying that you’re a bad farmer. But, if you kill them you don’t respect them. What I’m saying to you is you may give them a good life, but you kill them. But you kill them. The only reason you l;ook after them is because they are profitable to you. If those animals didn’t make you money, you wouldn’t be looking after them. Why don’t you kill the dogs? Why don’t you kill the dogs? But what’s the difference between killing a sheep and killing a dog? But that’s only your perception of them. But, the only difference is… But why does the dog get to live because culture has told you that they’re a pet? What’s the difference? Yeah. It used to be culturally normal to have a slave. Slavery was culturally normal. But would you have said… Why? Just because it’s culturally normal, doesn’t make it moral. Yeah, yeah. They’re alive, they feel pain. That’s all that matters to me. Yep. How? So how did sheep survive for thousands of years? No, what’s nieve is thinking that animals are here for you to kill for an unnecessary reason. That’s what’s nieve. You don’t have to kill animals. And you don’t have a moral justification to do so. You don’t have to do so. Yes. There was a farmer recently that gave away £48,000 of cattle because he was vegetarian, he inherited the farm. No, no, they got given to a sanctuary. They’re in a sanctuary. He didn’t sell them, he could have got the money. He could have got the money. Yes, what a lovely chap. They’re in a sanctuary. They’ll live until they naturally die, like we will. And like all animals should be able to. You can farm other things, what about organic vegetables? What about vegetables? Well, farm them instead. Do you not think the planet is dying? IT’s not sustainable any more. Yeah. But why stop there? Why stop at cutting back? Why not go vegan? Look, it’s irrelevant We don’t need it, that’s the thing we’ve already established, we don’t. Well, we don’t NEED meat. We don’t need it. People don’t need it. Buddhists, hindus, you know, have not eaten meat for thousands of years. They don’t need it. None of us need it We evolved from apes that were plant based And maybe ate like, some termites of something. The original beings we evolved form were vegan. We began eating meat when we needed to, for necessity. It’s irrelevant. It is. Because we don’t HAVE to. We don’t have to. We don’t have to. You don’t have to put a non-human animal on the same pedestal as a human, you don’t ahve to do that. All you have to acknowledge is that the life of an animal is worth more than your taste. And if you acknowledge that, that’s all you have to do to understand why you should be vegan. You don’t have to see a sheep the same as you see a human. It’s irrelevant if I believe that. You don’t have to. Mate, you can go living your life thinking that you’re superior to non-human animals, that’s fine you just don’t have to kill them. That’s it. But you can make a living elsewhere. What we need, we need subsidies from the government, to help people transition. It’s not going to happen, but that’s what we need. We can work together to make that happen. Because you want to make money in the future. The world is changing, whether you want to admit it or not, and you yourself said that people need to reduce their meat consumption. so if people go by your logic, that means that you will still be losing out on business. So what we should be doing as vegans and as farmers, is working together to create a world that exists for both of us. And that world is a world where you can farm, but you farm vegan plants. So we get to eat vegan, we get to help the world, save the animals, save the environment And you get to keep your job. That’s why the subsidies need to go to people like you, to create a vegan farm. Not yet, but we can get there. Yeah I know, I know. But I’m saying, we’re not against you. We’re not against you inherently I think what you do is wrong, but I do not think you’re a bad person. And I want to see a world where you get to keep doing what you’re doing without harming others. We come at opposite ends of the coin but inherently, we want to see the same world the world where you get to live, and still do what you’re doing, which is farming, but a world where these animals aren’t having to pay the price for that life. Thank you. It is changing. It is, it is changing. And I don’t want you to be in a situation without a job. I don’t want that to happen to you. And I’m sorry we’re in a situation where people feel under pressure, because they feel that they’re going to lose their money and stuff. Realistically, we can live in a different world. It may seem scary, and it may seem like a big, drastic change from what we have now, but realistically, it is possible. It’s possible, it’s possible. It’s good to chat. The thing about this is the only way we change, is through having discussion with each other. Even though we might not always agree with one another, and it gets heated, we can disagree, but it’s good to talk. And I appreciate you talking to me. I’m sorry for being angry, but we’re passionate. Yeah, it is.